The Slovenian philosopher and sociologist Renata Salecl spent the last five weeks in Buenos Aires and has a first diagnosis of how she sees Argentina, less than a month before the presidential elections on October 22nd, in which the ultra-candidate Javier Mieli is running as the favorite. “I’m afraid of what could happen, because such populist leaders can dramatically change a society and lead it towards authoritarianism,” Salecl (Slovenj Gradec, 61 years old) tells EL PAÍS on the terrace of his hotel at the end of September.
As a member of the Slovenian Academy of Sciences and professor at universities in Ljubljana, London and New York, the researcher visited Argentina at the invitation of the Writers Residency of the Museum of Latin American Art of Buenos Aires (MALBA). Salecl, who is also a legal theorist and psychoanalytic scholar, has published six books in the country – one with Siglo XXI and five with Ediciones Godot – and is preparing a new book in which she analyzes apathy in contemporary societies.
Questions. He spent five weeks in Argentina. How did the country experience the final phase of the election campaign?
Answer. I am shocked by the populism that plays an important role here. I’m shocked that Milei has so much support for her outrageous ideas. I’m afraid of what might happen after the elections because these kind of populist leaders can dramatically change a society and lead it towards authoritarianism. We saw that in Brazil [Jair] Bolsonaro, we saw it in the USA [Donald] Trump and I think he’s headed in that direction.
Q What is your fear?
R. I fear that people are so fed up with the status quo that they are willing to vote for someone who will cause disruption at any cost. Nowadays people have this idea that because everything is so bad, everything should be torn down. But if Milei comes to power, of course he will not do so in such a dramatic way because the institutions work and are independent of the president. I fear that the political situation will become so dire that the door will open to all kinds of aggression and denial. As for Argentina’s dramatic past, there are people who deny what happened during the dictatorship, and this could only increase. Argentina will go through difficult times in the coming years trying to survive this populist movement.
Q You write that in capitalist societies freedom of choice causes distress to citizens. This both paralyzes and encourages the status quo I mentioned. Do you think Milei’s followers will find in him someone who can bring about this change for them?
R. Yes, we always see that: people are desperate and then someone comes along, a leader, who doesn’t seem worried, who seems to know what to do. Stressed people identify with this leader. They are full of doubts and the populist leader does not seem to be able to lead them. Always [ocurre] in times of crisis. In such moments, people are looking for a leader, but at the same time they distrust traditional institutions.
Q In his book “The Tyranny of Choice” (Godot Editions, 2022), he writes that people do not always choose what is most convenient for them. Why does someone vote against their own interests? In Argentina, after the triumph of an ultra-liberal candidate, this debate arose: why should a person who is cared for by public health, for example, vote for a candidate who proposes to reduce the state to a minimum?
R. In the United States the situation was the same. During the presidency of [Barack] Obama, the Republican Party started attacking that [reforma sanitaria] Obamacare says so [la ley] This took away people’s freedom of choice in choosing their doctor, treatment, hospital, etc. But some of the people who voted against the reform had no choice because they didn’t have health insurance coverage. In the name of choice, they voted against something that could benefit them. I see a paradox there. Neoliberalism glorifies the idea that everything is a matter of individual choice and that this idea permeates society. So people who have no choice, who have no financial means to make decisions, support policies that are actually contrary to their well-being.
Q How would you explain the rise of Milei from a psychoanalytic perspective?
R. I think it channels deep feelings related to abandonment and anger. Like Trump, he speaks to people who feel excluded. At the same time, these candidates talk so outrageously that they give people the chance to say what they want to say and what they don’t want to say. People may not be so rude and vulgar in their personal lives, but he says the vulgarities for them. This is one of the attractions of Milei. And as I said, in times of crisis we are always looking for someone who doesn’t feel fear, who shows strength. Authoritarian leaders are very good at playing this role.
Renata Salecl, on September 29th. Anita Pouchard Serra
Q In his book Angustia (Ediciones Godot, 2018) he describes a society in which everything causes this feeling: finding a partner, deciding whether to have children or not, working, buying clothes… How does fear work?
R. The fear is increasing. In “The Tyranny of Choice” I analyzed the idea that everything seems to be a matter of choice, that everything is in your hands: your health, your happiness… This creates the agony of thinking that I didn’t do the right thing I have made the wrong decision and then I am guilty. The counterpart to the tyranny of choice is the feeling of inadequacy. I believe these feelings help the ideology of neoliberalism move forward. The fear becomes very paralyzing. But fear is a good phenomenon, a society without fear would be very dangerous.
Q He writes that there is a tendency to believe that it is possible to alleviate the effects of anxiety if the causes of this feeling are expressed, for example on social networks. Do you think that makes sense?
R. I think there are two points. On the one hand, there are people who are fighting for their fears to be more acknowledged and for there to be more awareness of how people suffer. But I also think that others are looking for a niche market because there is a big business dealing with heartbreak.
Q Are there reasons to feel fear in today’s society? They write that it is “arrogant” to claim that our civilization is experiencing more hardship than ever before.
R. Each generation believes it has more grief than the previous one. But I think we live in a time of very serious fears. Especially what is related to climate change. Climate change has had a terrible impact on our lives. There were floods in Slovenia this summer and a third of the country was under water. This has caused great distress, but also raised fears that it could happen again due to poor management by the government. It may worry you to think about who is in charge and whether they know what they are doing. This is a good fear because it prevents you from believing blindly. [a los gobiernos].
Q Three years have passed since he wrote Humanovirus (Ediciones Godot, 2023) about the coronavirus emergency. Can we now know how the pandemic has affected democracies?
R. Terrible. I conduct research on how crises are poorly managed at the Institute of Criminology at the University of Ljubljana’s Faculty of Law. We deal with the crisis of September 11, 2001, the economic crisis of 2008, the migration crisis of 2015 and 2016 in Europe and the Covid pandemic. At the beginning of each of these crises, governments declared a state of emergency. Extraordinary laws that banned us from doing this or that overnight. Very often these changes persisted after the crisis was already over. With the pandemic, we are witnessing a turn towards authoritarianism in a significant number of countries. And that has remained.
The cover of “Humanovirus”.Godot
Q In Passion for Ignorance (Ediciones Godot, 2022) he writes that in moments of crisis, people choose ignorance in order to avoid having to process traumatic events. What are we currently ignoring?
R. That we are not politically organized enough to deal with very important issues. We have a long history of ineffective leaders in many countries who do nothing to really change important things like climate change. Great Britain, for example, now offers industry the chance to extract more fossil fuels. We see the mistreatment of governments and the selfishness of elites. And distrust of democracy is growing. Many people believe that authoritarianism will bring order out of chaos. In Chile, 50% of people now believe this [el dictador Augusto] Pinochet didn’t do too badly. It is shocking. The turn to fascism and the rise of neo-Nazi groups around the world are the real danger.
Q What book are you working on in Argentina?
R. About apathy. I wonder why people don’t want to be emotionally influenced by the situations around them and why there are so many young people who don’t see the point in getting involved in politics. People tune out because they feel like nothing they do can really make a difference. So they don’t vote, they lock themselves in their bubbles…
Q Write about fear, loneliness, apathy… Is there a reason to think about a better future?
R. Yes, in moments of crisis an impulse of solidarity arises. In Slovenia, the floods forced many people to travel long distances to help people they didn’t know. I’ve seen this everywhere. After September 11, 2001, I was in New York and was shocked at how people organized. I would say that many institutions are thinking about whether we can go back and teach children more solidarity, more compassion and more values. I don’t have a completely negative view of people.
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