“All the women who have read the book tell me that reading it made them angry, and I understand: I get angry every time I talk about it.” This is how our conversation begins with Darcy Lockman, who appears in All the Rage . “Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Parenthood” brings together data, research, and testimonials that reflect the disproportionate share of parenting work that falls to women. It was only the birth of her first child that made it clear to the psychologist and author that inequality within the couple was increasing, even though she and her husband thought it would never happen. “I lived like a second-class citizen in my own home. “I tried to communicate my unhappiness to George, but he could only take it as criticism, so I never succeeded,” she writes.
The data reinforcing such inequalities is devastating: once women have children, they add 22 hours of childcare, while men only add 14 hours. The latter compensate for the effort by eliminating five hours of housekeeping. However, women retain their 15. The latest daily time use information compiled by Pew Research and the US Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that women who work outside the home take on 65% of child care responsibilities. Your male partners? 35%. According to the author, while we wait to find couples capable of sharing responsibilities, we are witnessing what political scientists call “rising and unmet expectations,” something that has led to revolutions in the past, women but did not encourage the start of the citizen revolution that followed. Is it possible to change things? Why is the feminist promise of a real de facto couple almost never fulfilled? We spoke to the author about it.
Captain Swing handles “All the Rage.”
What does it mean for women's mental health to constantly tell their husbands what they need to do at home?
It depends on how we feel about it. If we really don't care about this unequal distribution, it has no impact, but if we care and don't want it to be that way, it unsettles us. When we continually repeat what we need to our partners and don't get the response we want, anger rises. It's terrible to feel like we're with someone who refuses to listen to our needs and to feel like we're in a situation where our demands aren't being met. It is something that ultimately leaves a mark on our mental health.
He points out the importance of avoiding the “complaining woman” stereotype, but isn't it strange that the cultural backlash of the man complaining doesn't exist?
The problem is that the person who complains feels that their needs are not being met, and in Western culture there are those who express what they need and those who express themselves from a negative perspective complain. Instead of highlighting and criticizing the fact that part of the couple is not helping, which is why the woman complains, we assure that the problem lies with the one who raises her needs. It's really sexist that there isn't the backlash you mention about the complaining husband, but do you know why it doesn't exist? Because men have nothing to complain about. It's a way to reinforce the idea that women must be responsible for everything. What we need to do is internalize that we don't have to feel bad about expressing our displeasure. If we go to the bank to withdraw money and they tell us it's impossible, won't we complain? We're talking about a contractual agreement that forces us to fight for our needs, and yet women in romantic relationships are expected to put aside what they need. Things don't have to be this way.
Do you think talking about social sexism can make talking about housework less personal?
I hope so. I hope couples read the book and understand where they are coming from. Because we are not aware of the starting point, we end up in a catastrophe that would not exist if both sides understood that society pushes us to place ourselves in positions of inequality not because people are lazier, but because it is what we have internalized. . I think it's important to understand that the partner is not the enemy: we have simply internalized that men are more valuable, as are their time and needs. These ideas are ultimately reflected in our relationships.
Even couples who believe in equality find their dynamic changing when a baby is born. Because?
We all have values, and while progressive couples value our partners and don't fundamentally believe that women have to do everything, we must be clear that our values do not dictate our behavior, even if we believe they do. We may think that the husband will realize that his wife is responsible for all the housework and will think that it is important to distribute the tasks better, but contrary to expectations he will assure that it is best if she continues everything and claims: “He does it better”. We justify our behavior when it does not align with our values.
Do you think a couple who read the book before becoming parents would behave differently when the baby was born?
If both take it seriously and negotiate before the child's arrival, because his arrival involves a brutal amount of work, I think so. If you live with your partner and don't have children yet, the responsibility isn't as great. The man usually doesn't even notice that his wife is actually doing more things around the house because she isn't overwhelmed or exhausted yet. However, when the baby is born and we encounter this unequal separation of powers, women will be exhausted. We are not aware that the foundations have been laid for men to remain somewhat absent from domestic tasks. If you are aware of this, you know that you have to constantly negotiate to change things.
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This suggests that women feel much more pressure to be good mothers than fathers, who are immediately happy to provide even the slightest help. Why do we behave this way?
Mothers are expected to put their needs aside for their children, and since this is not expected of a father, he is applauded for doing the least. It's like starting to pick up trash on the street: people will say you're very good because you don't have to do that.
How can a couple embrace domestic equality?
This work requires a lot of work within the couple as each must reflect on how they have integrated sexism into their lives. Each person can decide whether they want this to be the case or not. Although we cannot individually change society, we can choose to have a different relationship. Society is not what we want it to be, and I fear that nothing will change anytime soon. In the United States, middle-class women did not enter the workforce en masse until World War II, and that was because men were away at war. What I mean is that the change came not because someone wanted to work, but because there was a moment of crisis that changed their behavior. The coronavirus has done something similar. People were forced to work from home and there were families where men telecommuted while women went to the office, making the division of household chores equal. In America it occurred in 10% of families and caused a change that was not due to a desire for change but to an external crisis. It seems that social change happens this way. We cannot individually control when these changes occur; The only thing we can do is try to improve the situation at home.
Can we achieve parental justice without institutional support?
I think so, but it's not easy. In Spain, paternity leave lasts 16 weeks and is a reminder that both mother and father are responsible for raising children. When men take parental leave and the wife goes to work, they gain confidence in looking after the baby because there is no one else to do it. These things are not intellectually complicated, but we learn to do them by simply doing them. These societal changes, where it is the government reminding us that parenting is the responsibility of both parties, are changing the prevailing mentality. Can couples experience significant changes in the distribution of tasks without this institutional support? Yes, but it's easier if it is like that, right?
Is the maternal instinct a lie?
Yes. What are instincts? Behaviors that we implement without having learned them. However, you learn to be a father and mother. How do you put on a diaper? Learn to do it. It's not instinct! How do you make sure the baby is not in danger? Nor are we talking about something instinctive: thanks to various insights, we know what is dangerous around us. The larger our brain, the less role instincts play in our lives. What we call instinct is actually learning, and the problem with calling it instinct is that we can cling to the idea that only women have it, thus confirming that they are having fun while women care about the take care of children. .
A new case of strategic incompetence, right?
It's very easy to say that someone is better at something than you, but in reality, the things women are better at are the things we've learned. If we do it better, it's because we've done it many times before. These expressions are used to justify not taking responsibility.
Marital happiness is affected when women feel that the division of labor is unfair. Are we doomed to be unhappy as a couple?
NO! In fact, studies suggest that the only couples whose marital happiness isn't affected by parenthood are those who claim to share the responsibilities equally. The least important thing is whether the distribution is really equal. What is important is that both of you feel that this is the case. By knowing in advance that the key to the couple's happiness lies in this equality, you can anticipate the work that parenthood will entail before the baby is born, thereby preventing the relationship from exploding.
Women tend to abandon anger in favor of gratitude when faced with certain inequalities at home. But isn't anger the driving force behind many changes?
Gratitude helps us to be less angry. It's true that we tend to rationalize anger. This happens, for example, when we notice that our husband is not helping much at home and we say something classic: “Our mother had it worse.” Gratitude is important, but I think we also have to feel anger. It's important to appreciate what he does at home but also recognize that we need him to do more.
Why do women feel comfortable when their needs are less addressed?
Children are raised to embrace the silver state while women are raised to be communal. They think about their priorities and we think about how others feel. When a couple is formed between a man and a woman, neither partner understands that the other was raised in such a different way, because this is something that we begin to notice as we grow up. When I started living with my husband, I saw certain strange things that I couldn't even identify what I found so strange until I realized that he always thought about his needs and put them above everything else. Mind you, my husband is wonderful, but when you live with a man you realize how different he acts in the world. I don't think they are as aware of it as we are because we tend to focus on the most powerful members of society: men. In short, you were raised to think about yourself and we were raised not to. We have to be flexible in both positions, but I think there are times when it's good for everyone to put their needs first and the times when we have to think about others. We are polarized by this education.
Aren't we so used to inequality that we sometimes don't even realize it?
If we were constantly aware of this, we would go crazy. There are studies that show that when couples pay attention to an equal distribution of household tasks, two-thirds of the work is actually done by women. If both feel that the distribution is fair, nothing happens, but the truth is that they continue to do much more.
While there is no easy answer, how can we try to achieve equality at home?
We must realize that this inequality may well exist at home, even if we believe it will not. This allows the couple to work together as a team to address the challenges they face. Life and relationships are hard enough; That's why we don't want this problem, although delicate and delicate, but we can address it and control it, to divide us. When we share the work, we come to the conclusion that we are clear about the importance of doing this and the importance of being open to listening to the other in a collaborative way. We can get closer to this balanced distribution.